Join Shelby Forums Today

Early 1966 "Crossover" GT350's

Discussion in '1965-1970 Shelby Mustang GT350 & GT500' started by SFM6S087, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    Howdy all,

    Does anyone know a good source for details about the early 1966 "crossover" cars? You know - the first 252 1966 Shelbys? They came from Ford as '65 Mustangs and were sitting on the lot, unconverted, when Ford introduced the 1966 Mustangs. So Shelby American took these "leftover" '65 Mustangs and built them into '66 GT350's.

    I know that the dashpad and upholstery are '65, yet the instrument panel and tachometer are 1966. And that these cars received lowered A-frames and over-ride traction bars like the '65's, but had functioning rear scoops and rear quarter windows like the rest of the '66 cars.

    But that still leaves so many unanswered questions. Like, should the GT350 side stripes be paint or tape? And should the engine block be black or blue? What about the exhaust system - side exhaust or out the back? And the list goes on.......

    If anyone knows of a concise list of the 65/66 parts and modifications that would be correct for these 252 "crossover" cars I would appreciate it.

    As a new member I posted here. If this should have gone somewhere else, just point me in the right direction.

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  2. TLEA

    TLEA Well-Known Member

    Age:
    66
    Posts:
    887
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    Warwick, Rhode Island
    A good friend of mine down the street has a very nice one. I think you'll find decals for stripes and black engine. His has the side exhaust but I'm not sure if that is how they came.
    Tim
     
  3. shelby6t5

    shelby6t5 Well-Known Member

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    SFM 6S001 was the first car with the "Tape" stripes. all 252 so called "carryovers" or 65 1/2's <neither of those names are recognised by SAAC, as far as I know - they call them 66's, and the Shelby VIN # supports that> have black engines, 65 dash's, lowered A's, Cobra 9k Cup tach <not pod> rear seats. All but one or two were white, and all were shipped from San Jose' as white, If I recall correctly. Rear HiPo exhaust, functional scoops.
    There were one or two oddballs, but otherwise they were all the same.

    Mike
     
  4. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    Thank you, to both Tim and Mike for speedy replies. The information you provided is very much appreciated.

    Steve
     
  5. s2ms

    s2ms Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    282
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Location:
    PNW
    IIRC all the carry-over cars had 5R09K Ford VINs and 65 style HiPo engines with black paint, gold air cleaner bottom, and fuel pumps with the integral cannister filter. Also about 80 of them had the 66 style package tray while only a handful after #252 had the tray. That makes an original 66 package tray much rarer than a 65.
     
  6. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Well I knew these cars pretty well a number of years ago, once owning #99. I still feel these are the best looking GT 350's of the bunch, but there are a few features of the "65's I like better, namely the dashpod, the rear package tray and the Cobra wood steering wheel. A good friend pointed out here that the rear "ribbed" tray was one of 80 made and were in the early,early cars where I think they were scattered throughout the production, in an old SAAC publication it lists it as being in the early cars only but what you have to do is go to the registry and look car by car as for the breakdown, in another source it states 82 were made, you would have to add up what was listed in the registry . There were most likely others of these shelves that they may have been purchased through the Shelby American catalog, so I am not sure if we will ever know how many were produced in total. Someone else mentioned they were pretty much all the same, about the same as 1965 models then too, some of these early cars also had the 15x6 KH steel wheels and they could have been purchased with or without the Le Mans stripes. The radio was another option of these cars. Another area which is unique to the 252 and some cars past this amount was the Cobra tach, the smaller diameter Cobra insignia was mounted on the top and the hash marks in between the numbers were pointed inwards unlike the later tach had the Cobra on the bottom and the hash marks pointing outwards. The door panels and seats were also 1965 as were the Ray Brown belts dated 1965. So why did Shelby American produce this batch of cars? They knew there was going to be anticipated closure of the San Jose Ford plant so they ordered one large batch of cars to carry them through the closure period. Some people call these "carry overs" some say "1965 1/2" models, Kopec once wrote a 1966 GT 350 is a 1966 GT350, nothing more, nothing less, I have always felt these are more valuable than a post 252 serial numbered car, just as an early 1965 GT 350, (pre # 114) is worth more than after #113 . If there is a web site www.1965gt350mustang.com there should be one for the 1966 GT 350's and/or a couple of people should do one for the these beautiful transition cars. Anybody out there listening? How did I do Dave? See you Thursday,root beer float on me. Hov:blink:
     
  7. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Oh, I guess I forgot as couple of things. All these early cars had the traditional 1966 smaller in the vertical dimension taped side stripe, these cars also did not have the Detroit Locker, this was an option for the 1966 cars, at least the early ,untouched cars I have seen, did not have them. Another area not talked much about on these cars are the rear panel GT350 emblem . The unmodified cars I have seen or factory photos do not show these emblems being present on these 252 cars, not to say over the years the future owners felt they were being left out and added them, my #99 car never had it mounted. Also these cars had rear exiting exhaust, another thing I like about the '65 models, you have to have the side exhaust..... right Dave,Dave you still awake? Hey these guys are cool, look at this one::wacko:
     
  8. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Hey where is everyone? Am I just typing to myself? O.K. how bout this guy?:mad:
     
  9. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
  10. shlby66

    shlby66 Well-Known Member

    Age:
    82
    Posts:
    405
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Location:
    East Coast - NJ
    '66 carryover cars were not made from "leftover" '65 Mustangs. They were
    purpose built by Ford for Shelby American for conversion into Shelbys. Being
    '65 built cars they had those features plus the '66 functional side scoops,
    quarter windows, and '66 grill. By the way, they did not have the '66
    instrument panel. They had the optional '65GT instrument panel. If you don't know the difference, go look. Black engine blocks, tape side stripes and
    either 15" steel wheels painted argent grey/chrome lug nuts or the optional
    15" Shelby/Crager mags. Exhaust could have been either side exiting or rear
    exiting depending on which state it was to be delivered. ( DMV rules) They are a group of neat cars and are highly prized by their owners today.
    shlby66
     
    67GT500#2100 likes this.
  11. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    5S284, you are a wealth of knowledge and I thank you profusely. I agree with you about the early '66 cars being special. They have always been my personal favorites because I thought they had just the rignt blend of the performance features of the 65's with the styling features of the 66's. You are right about the side exhaust, though. That would be nice to have.

    A few more questions if you don't mind.

    1. Didn't the 65's have drive shaft loops & axle limiting cables? Should the crossover '66 cars have those two features?

    2. How about the door sill plates. Seems I've seen two versions. I believe one has a single line of text and the CS logo on the right, and the other has two lines of text with the CS logo on the left. (I may have the log positions reversed.) Which would be correct for a crossover '66 car?

    3. On your car 99, do you remember how much of the trans was aluminum? Main case, tail housing, both, neither?

    4. Did the '66 Shelbys have rear seat belts? What about the first 252 crossover cars?

    5. A long time ago I was told that all the 65's and early '66 cars were missing two brackets under the rear seats that regular Mustangs and later '66 cars had. These were supposed to have had screw holes that the rear side panels normally bolted to. But those two brackets (one on the left and one on the right) were never welded in place by Ford on '65 & early '66 cars headed for Shelby. Something to do with the over-ride traction bars. Therefore a true 65 or early 66 Shelby would not have those brackets or any evidence that they had ever been there. Can you confirm that information?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  12. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    A tip of the hat and hearty "thank you" to shlby66 for adding to the information about these cars.

    It's interesting that you mention these cars could have had side or rear exhaust depending on the destination state. Most sources say rear exhaust only for all the '66 cars, including the first 252. But your explanation would seem to fit with the way Shelby worked.

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  13. s2ms

    s2ms Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    282
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Location:
    PNW
    Nicely done Mark, I'm a little surprised you didn't keep going until you ran out of icons to try. :guitar: Looking forward to the root beer float.

    Steve, I'm sure 5S284 will answer your other questions as soon as he wakes up which should be shortly since he rarely sleeps. He has forgotten more about the crossover cars than I'll ever know. The axle limiting cables were in production past the crossover cars so yes they should have them. It is my belief they were phased out with the switch to underride traction bars. As far as the sill plate labels I've read different things about when in production sequence the different styles were used. All I can say on that is my car, 6S1757, still has the original labels and they have a single line of text and the CS logo on the right. The border and CS logo are raised (embossed).
     
  14. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    Thanks, s2ms.

    All input is appreciated.

    I'm new to this forum and I'm amazed at how friendly and helpful everyone is.

    Steve
     
  15. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    A few tidbits, not sure if I want to get too involved in the color of the steel wheels but we have never found a proper name for the color, one person said it is "champaine" another gave me old PPG number which no one can access or find out any info about any longer. It is definately not argent silver, never heard of argent grey either. When I did my steel wheels they were a custom made paint batch which was by far the most difficult to come up, the color is strange, it changes depending on the lighting.
    Back to the early '66 cars I am pretty sure that they never came with side exhaust, they ALL came with rear exiting existing exhaust, the DMV statement is correct but that was for the 1965 GT 350'S. These cars did not have the driveshaft loops, that was just for the 1965 GT350's as well. The axle limiting cables were on these early cars since they had Koni shocks, at some point later they too, were deleted. Now here is something I have never seen, from what I have seen on unmolested cars they were no door sill emblems for the '65's just the black FORD ones. My '65 was last used in 1969, you would have thought at least one of the door sills would have had the Shelby American plate, but neither did ,nor was there any evidence that there was any adhesive on the old black FORD one. Dave is correct, sometime in the 1966 GT350 production there was an embossed door sill plate emblem, but not for the '65 or carry over early '66 cars. Transmissions on the early cars were always the aluminum T-10 , now SOMETIMES I have seen aluminum front cases with iron tail sections, but never an all iron case. Seat belts? great question, the carry overs never had rear seat belts, not sure when that was implimented at least by 1967.As far as the brackets for the mounting of the fiberglass interior panels they are there, they are vertical pieces of steel from San Jose, but only one bolt can secure the base of the interior panels because the fiberglass traction bar covers get in the way. Whew. Dave, you know as much as I , my kid can only play one song: Iron Man, it's driving me nuts:guitar:
     
  16. s2ms

    s2ms Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    282
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Location:
    PNW
    See Steve, told ya he would wake up and get after it! Now you're in real trouble.
    Guess it's time I taught him Smoke On The Water then..........
     
  17. 56ace

    56ace Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    163
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Personally, I always thought of the crossovers as the perfect blend of the 65 performance and 66 styling and thats why I searched one out when I bought.
    5s284,
    I thought I had read numerous places that the locker was standard on the crossovers, and 081 has one. Was it really just an option?

    Jay
     
  18. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Hello everyone, I guess I am not real experienced in the forums,one of my concerns is the posting information which is given out with good intent but is not proper information or information which we really are not sure of or is based from a literature source which was written 30 years ago and has since that time been refuted. Another problem I have is more recently the overused term of "Shelby historian" as used in some magazine articles lately. A lot of these people I have never heard of, I think the group of true historians is few , people who have taken all original cars apart for restoration or have viewed them intact for many years should be of most help to us. People like Cowles, Conley, Conover and Vogt. The true historians of these early cars are Kopec and Pardee, Conley is excellent here also,something about living in California helps. Nobody can come close,I feel,to these early cars than Pardee. He is in a group where no one else is. Sorry to go off the subject, but Shelby Mustangs are unique cars, in part they must be looked at by their serial number as they went down the LAX production line,but they also must be referred to their Ford sequence as they went the San Jose line. Shelby American GT350's are a difficult car to put into production run changes as there were sometimes several different suppliers for the same basic part. As part shipments arrived to the production line, they we intermixed with the parts already in the bin,hence Koni date codes rarely matched,early date code Konis may have been at the bottom of the bin but finally made their way on a serial number car much higher than we would have thought. Variations in wood steering wheels occurred throughout the 1965 production run, we will never know their exact cut offs.There were four different types of Ray Brown seat belts, one car may have had two different styles. The employees grabbed whichever belt was the closest, there was no attempt whatsoever to maintain consistancy. I guess what I am trying to say is that rarely is somthing set in stone,when it comes to the fine details in these cars,never say never, like I did. Thanks to SAAC we have an idea how the basic cars were outfitted, at least to the best info we have currently. I talked to Pardee yesterday after I posted my last response,the last thing I want to do is mislead anyone, luckily, he confirmed my answers, but as always he added things I never knew. As far as Detroit Lockers go, my #99 car did not have one but I bought it in 1985, so a lot could have happened by then, Pardee felt these cars never had them,in fact it was not listed as an option until early 1966, well after these 252 cars were produced. Most of my above answers were confirmed by Pardee, which is one the best single sources I can think of. I'll end with this guy::huh:
     
  19. 5S284

    5S284 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    48
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Oh,almost forgot, going back to a saying about these early 1966 cars which was popular in the late 1970's: They had the "cooks" of the '65, with the "looks" of the '66. :cool:
     
  20. SFM6S087

    SFM6S087 Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    113
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, Texas (outside of Houston)
    My thanks to 5S284 and 56ace.

    I appreciate all the information that everyone has shared here. Let me give you a little history about myself and my car. I purchased 6S087 28 years ago. It was in poor condition and I swore I was going to restore it to its former glory. I did tons of research to learn all I could about the early '66 cars, but that was pre-Internet, and even before SAAC and many of today's experts had built up the well of knowledge they now have.

    Well, it turned out that my car needed a lot more work that I expected and a lot more money that I had. Then a host of events transpired that sapped me of time, money and enthusiasm, and the car became a clothes folding table in the garage for my wife. Ouch!

    A few months ago I decided I had to either restore and enjoy the car or sell it. With my wife's encouragement I commited to a complete, quality restoration, and just recently sent the car to Jim Cowles at Shelby Parts and Restoration.

    I know Jim will do a fine job and get everything right, but I want to learn as much as I can about these cars for myself while I'm waiting for mine to come home. I didn't want to continually bother Jim with all my questions. I figure the more I interrupt him, the less time he has to work on my car. And I know Howard Pardee probably has his plate full too. I appreciate all the hard work he does as registrar and didn't want to pester him with a continuing stream of questions. So I discovered this forum and set out to do my own research.

    I'm trying to compile a complete list of all the details that make the early '66 cars different. Like several of you have mentioned I chose one because of the combination of '65-GO and '66-SHOW.

    Now for a few more questions (if I haven't put you to sleep yet.)

    I take it that everyone agrees the crossover cars did not have rear seat belts. Is that correct?

    Does anyone know definitively what the story is on the two styles of Shelby door sill emblems? It sounds like none of the '65 cars had the Shelby emblem and only some of the '66 cars. Does anyone know which '66 cars had what emblem? Maybe if several owners would chime in with what is on their car we can establish a pattern.

    Has anyone ever seen an early '66 that has the Cobra logo in the lower portion of the tach?

    Thanks again for all your friendly assistance.

    Steve
     

Share This Page