Join Shelby Forums Today

R-Model questions

Discussion in '1965-1970 Shelby Mustang GT350 & GT500' started by racingdivision, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    Greetings. As stated in prior threads I am building a R-Model clone. In my research i have noticed the instrument panel both inside and outside the dash opening. I have a couple of these and neither fit. My assumption is that they need to be modified to fit behind the dash opening. The clone is a 66, but i have a 65 dash that is going to go in so the dash opening is correct. Any one have experience with this?

    Second question is about the stock (screw) holes (not the metal brace that holds the dash pad on, this is already gone) that the dash screws in. Did any of the R's have any screw holes that where not used? Did they come from the factory with or without dash pad or trim screw holes.

    For anyone interested i have a site with progress images: http://www.racingdivision.com/R-Model/
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  2. shelby6t5

    shelby6t5 Well-Known Member

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    All 65 GT 350's were built as knock-downs, R's were no different initially, so the dash pad and any other item that did not contribute to the car going faster would have been removed (unlike the street cars), so holes showing that it was once there are correct for any parts that are not on an R, but on an S.

    Mike
     
  3. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    Makes sense. So is it a correct assumption that the cars that made up the initial batch (not sure how many that would mean) of R's started life as the same machine as the S did. So the dash pad was removed and the metal brace was then drilled out, sanded and repainted?

    Or did it come from San Jose without the dash and brace?

    Additionally anyone with photos of routing of front brake cooling ducts would be helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  4. shelby6t5

    shelby6t5 Well-Known Member

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

    All of the 65 Shelby's started out as San Jose' HiPo Fastbacks, except for the add / delete items (add export brace, Fairlane drums, T10m, 3.89's, etc - delete hood along with latching mech., rear seat, radio, exhaust, badges, etc.). They then went to the Shelby facility (Venice or LAX) with the Dash pad and other items in place just like an ordinary Mustang.
    To get to the R model look you are going for, Picture starting out with a Knock down HiPo that just arrived at the Facility, then remove all the parts to get to a stripped down car to reduce weight (dash pad, carpet, side & rear windows, trim, etc). Anyplace that one of those items was taken off would show the attachment points (in this case screw holes, etc.)
    Then add the R specific parts and chassis mods, etc.
    See page 408 of the current registry.

    Mike
     
  5. Jerry_Moss

    Jerry_Moss Well-Known Member

    Age:
    48
    Posts:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Germany/Bavaria
    Hi

    Cool project! :thumbsup:
    First of all: Where did you get these instrument panel from?
    I bought mine from Tony Branda and the thing is crab!!! :mad:
    I bought seat bracket for the R Model with the seat at Delta Bay Mustang
    and it´s crab! :mad: Somehow if got the feeling they ship the crab to the
    international costumers so they don´t need to worry about complaits. :mad:
    What was my problem with the panel is this:
    As you might have seen the dash opens a little from left to right.
    First i thought as i was looking at the panel the they bent it wrong
    because one side was higher than the other then i measured the panel and
    found out that it should be like that.
    But what they did is they bended the upper lid to the wrong side.
    If you now say turn it around then i say the bigger side of the panel
    is on the left wich should be right. Right!???! :guitar:
    Hard for me to explain.
    What i´m doing is i just buy the parts for lots of money just to have
    a sample to make it better.
    For me as a helicopter mechanic somehow i take things very serious
    even when it´s for a car.
    The bracket for the seat will be welded next week out of titanium! :thumbsup: need to save weight in that car. Titanium bracket weighs
    297 gramm!
    The four plates for the floor that plug up the drain holes i made today
    out of carbon. All 4 weigh 27 gramm instead of 160 gramm.
    When they are painted nobody will know just me! :thumbup:

    The prob rod? Crab too! Can you emagine the took solid steal for it?
    Titanium hollow tube bended weighs just a 5th of the original.
    Besides the quality was very very poor!

    I keep checking your page is pretty cool. Too bad i don´t have one yet.


    Bye Jerry

    Or email me if you need to know more
    GT350R@gmx.de
     
  6. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    Jerry,
    I don't think there is a conspiracy against the foreign buyers :0, I think it is more likely that there are so few suppliers for these parts and what do we have to compare them too? I don't know of any R-Models that have the gauge panel out that I could look over!

    I got my set-up from Ebay, the seller said it came from Cobra Automotive but it originated from Branda since it had his stickers on the gauges. As for the quality, I'm ok with it. I do agree that it is going to take a lot of fabrication to make the panel work. I am going to attach it from the back (as seen in 5R001).

    The book "Mustang Does It", if filled with great detail shots of the car back in 1978, so most likely it predates many replacement parts. It even shows the car with ONE side scoop for rear diff cooling instead of rear brake cooling. Pretty cool.

    As for the seat braces, I too will end up making my own, they seem pretty simple, and few people will be seeing them. Do you have drawings of the ones you made?

    All for now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  7. Jerry_Moss

    Jerry_Moss Well-Known Member

    Age:
    48
    Posts:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Germany/Bavaria
    Hi

    Could you post some pictures of the panel put in from behind?
    I wouldn´t do that because i think No 1 was mor a prototype.
    With the cooling for the differential sounds cool you are right.
    But how does it work?? Just blow cold air on the housing???
    That don´t work. Do you know more?
    The i have the drawings in my head. Measurements is metric
    you need to convert to inch yourself.
    The bracket is made out of tubes with 18mm of dia and maybe 1mm
    thinkness. The top of the bracket is made by two 240mm for the side
    and one with 295mm for the front. The back tube is 280mm in length.
    So it narrows down to the back. What you need now are 4 "legs" for
    the bracket the front are 40mm the back 30mm in height welded on
    4 plates with 5mm thickness and 25x50mm. The legs are cut on both
    ends with an 45 degree angle. I post pictures of mine next week
    when finished! :thumbsup:


    Bye Jerry
     
  8. 60's*dream*

    60's*dream* Active Member

    Posts:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Hello racingdivision,

    I too had the same concerns in regards to the way the "R" model dash panel fit. I bought mine from Cobra Automotive (Scotty) which was the one I ended up using. The one I bought from Tom at Delta Bay Mustang was incorrect (it mounted on the outside of the dash). Back to the Cobra Automotive piece, Scotty told me it would require some fitting and trimming, especially once you have gauges mounted on the panel. So what I did was I took the panel bare, fitted into place inside/behind the opening BUT in front of the lower screw mounting tabs, I found that the upper bent flap of the dash panel was not bent enough or at the wrong angle. It required a little more bend to match up to the upper mounting holes. So when it came to cutting and trimming the panel itself; I took a pencil and scribed the curved sides of the dash board opening (once the panel was in place, bare with no gauges on it) then trimmed the gauge panel SAVING 1/8 inch past my pencil mark on both ends so once the panel was in place there was no visual "air gaps" in the curved opening in relation to the gauge panel. This allowed me to slip in the gauge panel in with gauges mounted and not interfere with anything. (depth of the tachometer I used is a different story hitting the internal verticle brace but was corrected) In the end it worked. By the way I'm building a 1965 clone as well. Accuracy in "R" model details is premiere in my goals, no weird or goofy modifications to the chassis, suspension or body work/interior. My only deviation is on the engine, But I have 2, a correct R model visually and a fun motor limited to 60's modifications externally. By the way I'm a member of NorCal Saac (California) as well as SAAC. In regards to photos Nevada SAAC has a fairlycomprehensive picture gallery here's the link:

    http://www.nvsaac.com/gallery/1965_main.htm

    They also have other years as well. 1965 - 1970

    Continuing with R-Model questions from my end. I'm looking for the dimensions or accurate photos of the panel/mount for the twin SW 240A fuel pumps for the drivers side trunk found in i.e. #002 and/or in what was once Kopec's #098. Most other true competition model GT350's had single 240A's from the factory. Any help in this department would be appreciated. I have yet to check with Tony Conover in PA or Jim at Shelby Restorations.

    Lastly: Torque Boxes for 1965 GT350's. There is limited information on this subject as to whether or not they were installed at the factory. Were they installed on the second or third batch of cars only to find out that it was more of a hassel and discontinuing them? Most photos of the 65 GT350's I've seen do not show Torque Boxes in the restoration projects let alone any verbage. Question were these part of the running changes? I need clarification on this.

    On a different note: Limiting cables for 1965 GT350's (rear axel), information is in the 1997 Registry towards the back.

    Thank you for your time.
    ~Earl
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  9. crzy4shelbys

    crzy4shelbys Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Location:
    Trabuco Canyon, CA, USA
    I'll dig through my pictures at home (I have a lot of shots of R-models) and see if I can provide any dash pictures to help.

    Of the one's I have digitally on this computer, I thought these two were interesting as they really show the modifications made to the front of the front fender wheel openings on 5R098. I've seen the car in person a couple of times and they never stood out to me, until I looked at the side shot I took at Laguna Seca 2003. The other R-model is 5R103 for comparison.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  10. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    Sounds like an odd question but since it doesn't fit well how would one know if mine was designed to fit on the outside of the opening rather than the inside?
     
  11. 60's*dream*

    60's*dream* Active Member

    Posts:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Hello racingdivision,

    I couldn't be certain how your's should fit without seeing it. You mentioned in a previous post that you bought it from;

    "I got my set-up from Ebay, the seller said it came from Cobra Automotive but it originated from Branda since it had his stickers on the gauges."

    The ebay seller could have bought the panel from CA then bought gauges from Branda that's very possible, but that doesn't matter. I've seen both Branda's and Cobra Automotive's. I believe they're from the same supplier/vendor. This one is designed as it should be, granted it needs some tweaking and trimming to fit properly. Definitely NOT a straight bolt-in. Answering your question is difficult without seeing it to comment.

    The one I bought from Delta Bay is completely different. The bend at the top is only about 120 degrees and only about 3/4" wide. The overall height of the gauge panel face is too tall to fit inside and behind. If I hold it against the dash board on the exterior of the dash. it works, but not for me. I'll give it to anyone who wants it.

    ~Earl
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  12. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    I've got to agree with you on that one. Well I've trimmed the panel so it fits quite nicely, partially in front and partially behind the opening, i guess that is hard to visualize with out photos. Those will be coming soon.

    All of the welding, with the exception of welding the dash and the seat riser is done. Next will be cleaning and priming the areas of new metal, then on to the body work. Being this car is from OK it sure has seen a few hail storms!
     
  13. Jerry_Moss

    Jerry_Moss Well-Known Member

    Age:
    48
    Posts:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Germany/Bavaria
  14. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    Actually I said, "partially in front and partially behind the opening". Which means in front of the tabs but tucked behind on the sides as in the photo attached. Although when I tried to tuck the right side behind the dash, near the radio opening, it bends the gauge panel way to much, so i trimmed it flush with the opening. And yes I have seen cars with it just screwed on from the outside with little or no trimming. The photos attached are 5R 530 and shots i have of 5R001 are the same.

    Cheers.
     

    Attached Files:

    • b1.jpg
      b1.jpg
      File size:
      123.8 KB
      Views:
      62
    • b2.jpg
      b2.jpg
      File size:
      126 KB
      Views:
      69
  15. 60's*dream*

    60's*dream* Active Member

    Posts:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Hello racingdivision,

    Your posted pictures of the dash is the correct look. From the sounds of your description your lower right front screw tab may be pulled or bent too far forward requiring your gauge panel to arch. My suggestion is to bend that lower right front tab accordingly, carefully of course. The thickness of the metal is pretty tough, not to worry about breaking it off. Also check if there is too much excess material on the right curved side of the opening. That would have the same effect of the tab being too far forward. Note* There will be a gap on both left and right sides of the opening from about the top the fuel pressure gauge and the oil temp gauge as the contour of the dash board curves forward. Your described issue is very correctable. Good luck.

    ~Earl
     
  16. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    I don't have access to a registry but I did find this tidbit last night in Randy Leffingwell's, Shelby Mustang Racer for the Street. "Shelby ordered 15 more cars, stripped down even further than the first 100. They arrived without rear or side window glass, interiors, insulation, headliners, heaters, defrosters and gas tanks. While his growing staff started quickly on the 100 cars, work proceeded more deliberately on these 15. They were to be Shelby's first racers".

    So my question is that if SAI ordered cars with no interior (which would supposably include dash pads) would their be dash pad screw holes?

    I guess it may come down to which R-Model am I replicating? The one of the two mule cars or the production racers.

    Thoughts?
     
  17. shelby6t5

    shelby6t5 Well-Known Member

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    632
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    What is in that paragraph is correct, with a minor error - it was 110 cars, 15 of which were sent with out those items - so yes, it is a matter of which group you are replicating. Those 15 also did not have the dash pad eyebrows, if you want to be really correct.

    Mike
     
  18. racingdivision

    racingdivision Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Calif
    With the body work progressing nicely I am turning the conversation towards paint. What are the finish differences between these blacks? Regarding matte, satin, semi gloss or gloss.

    Engine Bay
    Dash (without pad)
    Floor pan (beneath carpet)
    Roof (beneath headliner)
    Roll bar
    Interior fiberglass (package tray & side panels)
    Door (Interiors)

    Thanks for your input.
     

Share This Page