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Is it elitist not to want replicas mixed in with authentically old cars at concours?

Discussion in 'Events Forum' started by bitzman, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    When I broached this question on this forum somebody complained I was elitist. Not at all, I want to own a replica, just that they don't make a replica of the car I want (Bizzarrini GT5300 Strada).TThere's no space here to spell out my beef against concours that mix 'em up but did on this website for those who have an interest in this subject.

    http://motorsportsmarketingresource...og/what-makes-for-a-world-class-concours.html
     
  2. mrmustang

    mrmustang Well-Known Member

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    Re: Is it elitist not to want replicas mixed in with authentically old cars at concou

    Wally,

    Since you were referring to my post on the other thread I thought I would interject a little more. based on your writings, both past and present, it is quite clear to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that you are indeed of the Elitist community. It is my understanding from speaking with others in the Ferrari circles out on the west coast that you started playing this style trump card with them back in the early 80's, saying anything built by Ferrari after 1976 should not be considered for a Concourse show. After you were removed from those circles (the full story is not known to me personally, so I'll leave that at that), you slid on over to the Cobras, and area in which you still do not understand (literally or figuratively) the mindset of their enthusiastic owners. Having lunch yesterday at the home of a CSX3000 owner I can tell you they are gracious people, most original Shelby owners do not thumb their nose at the replicas and could care less whether they were parked in between them, or away from them (I can say I only know three such people, two of which own CSX4000 series continuation cars). They are the ones who's opinions matter when it comes to questions (or articles) like yours. They are the true enthusiasts who understand, while you are the outsider peering through that window just like Alice peered through the looking glass. One day you might take the time to look at it from their viewpoint, but until you do, just make sure to not place them all within the same sphere that you live in. For sadly, when that days comes, it will be the end of automobile collecting as we know it .


    Bill S.
     
  3. ChicagoChris

    ChicagoChris Member

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    Re: Is it elitist not to want replicas mixed in with authentically old cars at concou

    Concours belong to original cars.

    Car shows and cruise-ins belong to all.

    I owned a CSX4000 a few years ago and it should not be parked next to a CSX2000/3000 in a judged concours. In turn, my 4000 series should not be judged in the same class as a Factory Five.

    In the last 4 years I won my class in both a Chicago and Cincinnati concours, so I base my opinion on experience.#

    #Those wins did not involve my 4000 series.
     
  4. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    I think in the long run the Shelby brand ones will be accorded a special status

    I have a friend who ordered an alloy bodied Shelby Cobra replica from Shelby
    even after he found he could get virtually the same car from
    another brand, with an alloy body, at a lower price. But his reasoning was: "It is a Shelby."
    So I think, if there is good documentation of the ones that Shelby built (it all depends on the documentation in classic car circles) those have more of a chance of being considered a cut above the replicas made by others in terms of history if not craftsmanship. Note when billionaire Larry Ellison ordered a Cobra with a die cast frame he ordered it not from Shelby but from the guys in Utah, and paid $1 million bucks! But as someone who is going to the more expensive concours (not the cars n' coffee impromptu events) to see real cars made in the original era I am glad you recognize that need of the showgoers who expect to see original era cars. Also since the approach of each different replica maker is different, how are the judges supposed to judge the replicas if they are mixed in with the actual era cars since there is no standard for replicas, one maker may use square section tubing, another round, etc. as well as different fasteners, gauges, etc. etc.
     
  5. rshelby

    rshelby ShelbyForums Admin Staff Member

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    Re: I think in the long run the Shelby brand ones will be accorded a special status

    Making a purchase, whether automobile, watch, clothing, bicycle, etc. is not always based upon craftsmanship. People often buy based upon brand reputation and that reputation may be based upon quality of craftsmanship, style or something quite different and most likely the "brand reputation" is based upon a variety of factors and not just one factor such as craftsmanship. Value or perceived value can be based upon quality, resale value and many other factors which might include something as simple as pride of ownership. Do you enjoy telling people your Cobra is a Shelby or do you enjoy telling people you drive Factory Five? It is different for different people. Some prefer one and some prefer the other.

    While documentation is a benefit, I do not think documentation plays a major role in determining whether someone buys a Shelby vs. another Cobra replica. I think it is the Shelby brand that is tied to the original Cobras and has been built over the past 50 + years that draws people to Shelby Cobras. Just the same as other makers have created their own brand identity that draws their customers. That brand identity is based upon their own set of factors and the right choice for one may not be the right choice for others. So in the end, I think you can compare quality of craftsmanship among different brands, but that is not necessarily what determines which brand each person would purchase or which one is "better" or as you stated..."a cut above."
     
  6. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    The Pantera is a better example of modification vs. originality

    This comparison may be somewhat related. Over in another forum, in a Pantera appreciation thread, I was the only nay sayer, saying that I thought the problem with Pantera owners as a group is that 99% of them have already changed the
    -intake manifold
    -carburetor
    -exhaust headers
    so the car runs better and certainly looks better under the hood but the problem is that, in a concours, they are judging originality. So the problem is, if you run it the way Ford sold it, you get worse gas mileage, worse performance and the lot. But I think the purpose of the fancier concours is so you can look at a 100% dead stock car and judge how it compares with other restored cars, not custom cars. The trouble was Ford was building a semi-exotic to a price ($10,000 seemed high at the time..) and had to cut corners here and there to do it. They "put the money on the outside" as they say in Detroit.
    So there's a case where the quality is not so good at the original OEM level but if you want your Pantera to win Best Original you'll have to put the stock parts on. So far, too many Pantera owners are enjoying their cars to want to go in that direction but I think once the factory GT/4 race cars start going for a million bucks those with less storied cars will began to think originality has its merits..
     
  7. ChicagoChris

    ChicagoChris Member

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    Re: Is it elitist not to want replicas mixed in with authentically old cars at concou

    If modified from stock, it could get pionts deducted depending on the kind of concours.

    However, I think the start of the thread was displaying a replica next to an original.
     

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