Oil Warning

[2shelbys]

For all of you with non-roller cam cars who are still using the old favorite oils including synthetics like Mobil 1 5W-30 (which I used for years) I have a valuable tip.
Stop using it!
Almost all manufacturers including Mobil have reduced the level of ZDDP (Zinc) in most of their oils to meet current standards that are in place to prolong catalytic life. Unfortunately, zinc is vital in car with a non-roller cam to prevent early cam failure. Their new Mobil 1 15W-50 was introduced to address this issue but the 5W-30 is not acceptable. If a manufacturer will not tell you what the ZDDP concentration of their products is, do not use anything they make. You should not use any oil with a zinc concentration of less than 1200ppm and 1300-1400ppm is best. All of Amsoil's synthetics have a concentration in the high 1300's which is perfect. Their Formula 2000 20W-50 Severe Service Racing Oil is the hands-down best for performance or racing engines. Royal Purple has a good product too. I have heard good things about Rotella but I do not know anyone who has used them. Amsoils recommended drain interval for their synthetics is 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal conditions.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by 2shelbys

All of Amsoil's synthetics have a concentration in the high 1300's which is perfect.....

Isn't Amsoil sold like Mary Kay thru an MLM dealer network?

[DeLa1Rob]

Does not seem to be any consensus amongst the oil gurus on this subject. Many recommend the heavy duty oils for older engines. I am not sure what constitutes as "older". I believe roller cams became more dominant around 1989. Perhaps anything earlier than 1990 would qualify as older.

robin

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by 2shelbys

For all of you with non-roller cam cars who are still using the old favorite oils including synthetics like Mobil 1 5W-30 (which I used for years) I have a valuable tip.
Stop using it!
Almost all manufacturers including Mobil have reduced the level of ZDDP (Zinc) in most of their oils to meet current standards that are in place to prolong catalytic life. Unfortunately, zinc is vital in car with a non-roller cam to prevent early cam failure. Their new Mobil 1 15W-50 was introduced to address this issue but the 5W-30 is not acceptable. If a manufacturer will not tell you what the ZDDP concentration of their products is, do not use anything they make. You should not use any oil with a zinc concentration of less than 1200ppm and 1300-1400ppm is best. All of Amsoil's synthetics have a concentration in the high 1300's which is perfect. Their Formula 2000 20W-50 Severe Service Racing Oil is the hands-down best for performance or racing engines. Royal Purple has a good product too. I have heard good things about Rotella but I do not know anyone who has used them. Amsoils recommended drain interval for their synthetics is 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal conditions.

I thought this horse was dead. Please, no more scare tactics. Would you happen to be an Amsoil dealer?

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/sh...st/1772224/hl/

Z. Ray

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by zrayr

I thought this horse was dead. Please, no more scare tactics. Would you happen to be an Amsoil dealer?

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/sh...st/1772224/hl/

Z. Ray

No, it is not dead. It is just misunderstood by you. No scare tactics and no, I am not an Amsoil dealer. Being one but not telling anyone and also mentioning Royal Purple would not have helped me much would it?

The info you posted confirms exactly what I said. That the new formulations are fine for newer engines, all of which have roller cams, but if you look at the answer to "Question: What are my options for rebuilt, high performance street or race engines?" you see their doubts about using these oils and their suggestion of using HP oils just like the ones I mentioned. If you have any doubts about this just post a question to any of the major cam manufacturers about this issue and see what they say.

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Isn't Amsoil sold like Mary Kay thru an MLM dealer network?

It is in the stores around here. You can also sign up with them as a dealer or preferred customer to get 25% off the price of anything you buy with no minimums.

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by DeLa1Rob

Does not seem to be any consensus amongst the oil gurus on this subject. Many recommend the heavy duty oils for older engines. I am not sure what constitutes as "older". I believe roller cams became more dominant around 1989. Perhaps anything earlier than 1990 would qualify as older.

robin

It isn't so much the actual age as it is engines with flat tappet or slider cams.

[DeLa1Rob]

Does any one know if the cam shaft manufacturers are adjusting the metallurgy of the slider cams to cope with a lower zinc content in motor oils?

robin

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by 2shelbys

No, it is not dead. It is just misunderstood by you. No scare tactics and no, I am not an Amsoil dealer............

I didn't mean to come off so harsh.

Yes, it is a concern, but there are many solutions to the problem. The synthetic oils previously mentioned are probably the best solution for many. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for 18,000 miles now with no measurable wear, no leaks, and no problems,

Also, several additives are now in the marketplace, for those that want more security.

ex: http://www.zddplus.com/

Also, a few oz. (4 or so) of the Crane or Comp Cams break in additives can be added at oil changes to boost the ZDDP levels if desired.


Unfortunately, there is NO scientific data, or studies, as of yet, that link the reduction of ZDDP to the failure of flat tappet camshafts. All the evidence of a link is anecdotal in nature, not scientific. Since we are shrinking minority, there is not much of of possibility that a comprehensive study will ever be done on the subject.

Z. Ray

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by zrayr

I didn't mean to come off so harsh.

Yes, it is a concern, but there are many solutions to the problem. The synthetic oils previously mentioned are probably the best solution for many. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for 18,000 miles now with no measurable wear, no leaks, and no problems,

Also, several additives are now in the marketplace, for those that want more security.

ex: http://www.zddplus.com/

Also, a few oz. (4 or so) of the Crane or Comp Cams break in additives can be added at oil changes to boost the ZDDP levels if desired.


Unfortunately, there is NO scientific data, or studies, as of yet, that link the reduction of ZDDP to the failure of flat tappet camshafts. All the evidence of a link is anecdotal in nature, not scientific. Since we are shrinking minority, there is not much of of possibility that a comprehensive study will ever be done on the subject.

Z. Ray

I didn't take your reply as harsh and I did not mean for mine to sound that way either. Yes, there are solutions but I have run across so many guys who are using oils they think are the same as they have always been that aren't. You will be fine with Mobil 1 15W-50 because it was introduced to address this issue. You just have to avoid many of Mobil's other products. I sent questions about this to some of the companies whos stuff I have used. Some did not respond. Mobil sent me a sales pitch for the new 15W-50 with no specs on how much ZDDP is in it. Amsoil sent me this:

OBJECTIVE:
Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tap-pet and camshaft style engines and the effect of motor oil additives containing higher levels of zinc/phosphorus.
ISSUES:
Engine oils contain anti-wear additives and the most common anti-wear chemistry is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP), which contains a combination of zinc and phosphorus. In 2005, in an effort to guarantee catalytic converter performance in new vehicles, the American Petroleum Institute (API) and International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) instituted API SM and IL-SAC GF-4 quality standards which reduced the maximum limit for phosphorus to 0.085% and 0.080% respectively. Both API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications also contain a minimum phosphorus content of .065% and .060%.
Previously, API SL/ILSAC GF-3 oils were restricted to 0.10% phosphorus level, so a concern arose that oils containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide insufficient protection in high pressure areas of flat tappets and camshaft lobes found in many older cars and high-performance engines.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
Proper assembly lubes and oil additives should be used during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with flat tappets. These additives provide the extra protection required at the point of contact during break-in to help the flat tappet face to properly mate with the cam lobe. Once the break-in phase is completed, these additives should not be used because of other engine life issues created by long term use of these materials. AMSOIL does not provide break-in assembly lubricants, but one of the common products is GM E.O.S., which is an assembly lubricant and is not, as stated by GM, an engine oil additive. AMSOIL does not recommend using any engine oil additives with AM-SOIL engine lubricants.
High-performance modified engines benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one area in an engine that has extreme contact load. This load increases significantly where non-stock, high-pressure valve springs are employed so the use of properly formulated engine lubricants is extremely important to reduce wear and extend flat tap-pet/camshaft life. In these applications, AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of zinc/phosphorus for superior protection.
RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL AMO, ARO, HDD, TRO, and AHR all contain high levels of zinc/phosphorus maximizing flat tappet/camshaft life in stock and modified applications.
AMSOIL 10W-40 (AMO) and 20W-50 (ARO) are premium synthetic formulations which are recommended for API SL (gasoline)/CI-4 Plus (heavy-duty, on-road diesel) specified applications. They are an outstanding choice where high zinc containing protection is required in late model hot rods requiring extra camshaft protection.
AMSOIL (HDD) is a 5W-30 weight combination diesel/gasoline oil with a higher starting TBN to handle the significant stresses from high soot loading and acid generation in modern diesel engines. HDD contains the high phosphorus and zinc required for long life.


TSB: MO-2007-08-08
Date: 8/3/2007
Page 1 of 2
Subject: Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication
Technical Service Bulletin
Product Description: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils
Submitted By: TSSTPM
Reviewed By: DP
Approval By: COO Date:
Distribution: ___Internal _X_All
AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2006
Submitted By: DP
AA Date: 08/08/07
AMSOIL Product Name Phosphorus Level

THE LAST TWO NUMBERS HERE ARE THE PHOSPHORUS LEVEL THEN ZINC LEVEL
AMO 10W-40 Synthetic Premium Protection 1265 1378
ARO 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection 1266 1379
HDD Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Oil 1266 1379
TRO 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil 1235 1370
AHR SAE 60 Synthetic Racing Oil 1265 1375

AMSOIL 20W-50 (TRO) is a premium synthetic racing oil with superior film strength and anti-wear protection for gasoline engines. It is an excellent choice for street or race cars, hot rods, trucks or boats. TRO is the preferred choice for highly modified, high horsepower engines requiring the extra protection required by flat tappet camshaft engines.
AMSOIL (AHR) is a super heavy weight racing oil de-signed for alcohol and nitro burning race engines where viscosity loss associated with fuel dilution is a concern. AHR includes a high dose of zinc containing anti-wear chemistry that performance engines require.

There are other choices like Royal Purple and Hughe's additive etc., but Amsoil is more up-front and honest about their stuff than anyone else. The independent test results are impressive too. Right now you can also use Rotella, Delvac, Delo, and other diesel oils but the ZDDP will disappear from them soon as diesels will be required to have cat's too. I posted this because of how many people I run into that have never heard about this issue.

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by DeLa1Rob

Does any one know if the cam shaft manufacturers are adjusting the metallurgy of the slider cams to cope with a lower zinc content in motor oils?

robin

I haven't heard of any such plans and it is unlikely. That would be a very expensive proposition compared to just using the good oils and additives that are out there.

[s2ms]

There is no easy answer to the oil question regarding flat tappet cams. This subject has been discussed on the various forums for about two years now. IMHO one of the best sources for info on this subject is the Bob is the Oil Guy website. Tons of info here posted by some very knowledgeable people so take your time and read through it.

Yes, it is a concern, but there are many solutions to the problem. The synthetic oils previously mentioned are probably the best solution for many. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for 18,000 miles now with no measurable wear, no leaks, and no problems,

Also, several additives are now in the marketplace, for those that want more security.

ex: http://www.zddplus.com/

Also, a few oz. (4 or so) of the Crane or Comp Cams break in additives can be added at oil changes to boost the ZDDP levels if desired.

Unfortunately, there is NO scientific data, or studies, as of yet, that link the reduction of ZDDP to the failure of flat tappet camshafts. All the evidence of a link is anecdotal in nature, not scientific. Since we are shrinking minority, there is not much of of possibility that a comprehensive study will ever be done on the subject.

Z. Ray

I agree with zrayz's comments. We are a minority and it's up to us to do the research and determine what's best for our cars based on individual useage. As he points out there are solutions. FWIW, I have been using a heavy duty (HD) oil, Chevron Delo 15W-40, with excellent results. Even the HD oils are becoming subject to EPA regulations requiring less zinc so one of the break-in additives used conservatively may ba a good preventative measure.

[rr64]

Folks, engine oil is not the only lubricant family loosing zinc compounds. The ISO grades of hydraulic oil are too. I won’t mention company names but I work in a very high volume manufacturing plant for one of the world’s largest companies. We have hundreds of hydraulic system from tiny power units to gigantic injection molding presses in our facility. We have used under international contract one particular brand of IS0 46 oil for decades. We have a full time technician just to monitor oil condition, have samples of oil sent for analysis, and service extreme performance filtration systems. When we added a full time technician and he talked us into pressure filtration at every costly machine our yearly repair and replacement cost dropped off in the seven figure dollar amount the first year. Barring some type of contamination like a coolant leak oil in running machines usually tests out cleaner than brand new oil in drums. (We also have a reclamation area that can remove all particulates and some contaminates.)
Anyway, the oil we have used for decades had generous levels of zinc compounds in it. In a global cost cutting move our company contracted with another oil company. The oil still meets ISO 46 requirements but has no zinc compounds. The conversion started in some of my equipment. In the first three weeks of the new no zinc oil I had four years worth of down time and some ugly catastrophic failures (equipment damaged so badly it was not salvageable). Many tens of thousands of dollars later we went back to the old oil even though it was against company policy at that point. It was simple to me, go back or shut the factory down and send over 1,000 people into unemployment. The new oil company was upset too and had their North American guru contact me. I described the equipment, the exact application, and the results of changing to their oil. I asked if they had any oil with zinc compounds, the answer no.
In our last contact (new oil company) he indicated that zinc free oil works in most applications but will not work in them all. He recommended officially we use the oil we used for decades (25+ years) without trouble.
When all this ZDDP discussion started a few years ago I contacted most of the larger oil companies and specialty companies. I dug past sales people and got to engineers. Every sales person said all their materials pass the applicable tests. Every engineer said if they had a car like mine and wanted to preserve the original engine that they didn’t have a commercial product they would recommend for it. This wasn’t from just a camshaft lobe and tappet interface discussion. Because of various technical details original ball and socket rocker arm and camshaft gear and distributor gear interfaces were also discussed as potential problem areas. That was in the 2004-2005 time frame. Since then specialty companies have started offering engine oils that while expensive, should do the job. Off road and diesel oils are not the long term solution as their zinc levels are being cut too, catalytic converter equipped big trucks are now available and will soon be the only thing made new.
In the end, I will spend money where ever I can to be able to preserve my original engine and its original cam installed by Ford in 1964. I want to drive and enjoy the car. The oil companies are not into preserving your old car. When they say they pass the tests required that can literally mean barely pass (see note below) them. Pass to them means get new cars past their warrantee period and not last 40+ years. Your government and the OEMs probably don’t want cars to last more than just past warrantee. They want you to buy new technology and recycle the old.

Note:
30+ years ago I was the technican in our plant adding a ZDDP compound to oil in our product. Why did we add it? To increase service life. A product with no additive was statistically capabale of running at least five years before crankshaft wear passed engineering limits and or started to cause end users problems. Just adding the ZDDP increased service life average to over twenty years. Oh no, can't do that so product planners had us stop using it.

[rr64]

I forgot maybe the most important detail. IF YOU decide to try any material in your pride and joy and it fails it is totally YOUR problem. The company that produced the oil will promise it passes lab tests but it is up to YOU to determine fitness for YOUR application. If YOU have a failure the oil company will blame YOUR actions. (Check out the many threads on this subject on the Internet.) They do lab tests on engines they can buy off the shelf by the dozens cheaply. Do you want to use your original engine as a test bed to see if it fails?

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by rr64

I forgot maybe the most important detail. IF YOU decide to try any material in your pride and joy and it fails it is totally YOUR problem. The company that produced the oil will promise it passes lab tests but it is up to YOU to determine fitness for YOUR application. If YOU have a failure the oil company will blame YOUR actions. (Check out the many threads on this subject on the Internet.) They do lab tests on engines they can buy off the shelf by the dozens cheaply. Do you want to use your original engine as a test bed to see if it fails?

An excellent point. That is why I said no one should use any oil with a ZDDP concentration less than 1200ppm (the minimum concentration agreed on by most cam manufacturers) and you should not use anything produced by a company that will not divulge the exact ZDDP content of their products.

[2shelbys]

Originally Posted by rr64

When all this ZDDP discussion started a few years ago I contacted most of the larger oil companies and specialty companies. I dug past sales people and got to engineers. Every sales person said all their materials pass the applicable tests. Every engineer said if they had a car like mine and wanted to preserve the original engine that they didn’t have a commercial product they would recommend for it.

Did you talk to anyone at Amsoil or Royal Purple?

[rr64]

One yes and one no. One of them didn't care about me and my old car and one spent a lot of time with me. The one that did seem sympathetic couldn't help me back then as at the time you could go modern street car formula or all out racing formula from them. There wasn't any real middle ground. The street oils were not guaranteed to be suitable for my (up to 7,000 rpm or more - I use to run old zinc rich oil up to 8,500 rpm with no issues in a 1965 GT350) application and racing oils didn't have the viscosities, detergents, dispersants, and other package components suitable a mostly street driven car. On the street 10W40 is still too much viscosity with my Melling® high volume pump so the 40 and up race only oils on street were just no way. (Way back when I was running open track events I installed a Ford/Hayden oil cooler system similar to the Shelby/Hayden systems available in the 1960s. Lowering the oil temperature required a lower viscosity oil for street driving. On track I used a straight 40 racing oil. I should probably remove the oil cooler now.)
What I want is an oil company tested commercial 10W30 or maybe even a 10W20 street oil with enough ZDDP to be able to handle occasional sprints. I am wary about adding anything to commercial oils as frothing and other problems can result if the additive is incompatible with the additive package the oil maker put in. Additives could do more harm than good, especially if added in too high of a concentration.
I am not really concerned with the cost of the oil. There is no way for me to measure dollars per quart against my original engine. Dollars per quart can be replaced so to speak while my engine only exists once. I participated in the above mentioned oil forum back when this all first unfolded a few years ago. No one would say yes if I owned a Cobra whose engine still had its original camshaft I would use product such and such. The best anybody would do is say try something and get frequent oil analysis and stop what you are doing if accelerated wear is indicated by testing. Whow! Me try stab in the dark hoping not to ruin my engine? No way! The next best scenario was buy another engine for testing and store my original. Okay, how easy and cost effective was that going to be? You just don’t go down and buy NOS 1964 289 parts at the local Ford dealer at 1964 prices anymore. Like many things the difference between passes test by the maker and lasts a long time are much different. In our application at work adding ZDDP increased average crankshaft life (as determined by measurement of journal wear) 4X+. Meets specification equaled five years. Make an improveme