Pebble Cobras

[vernonestes]

Heres the list of the cobras sold at RM.

I think they are way overpriced for largly unorigional cars.

You decide!

http://www.rmauctions.com/AuctionRes...Cars&Currency=

Vern

[isaak-gt500kr]

Makes me think of the deals I passed on over the years. Hindsight is 20-20 I guess.

[david9295]

hindsight is $-$

[rr64]

Originally Posted by vernonestes

Heres the list of the cobras sold at RM.

I think they are way overpriced for largly unorigional cars.

You decide!

http://www.rmauctions.com/AuctionRes...Cars&Currency=

Vern

Hi Vern,
Based on my contacts with various individuals in the business, potential buyers, potential sellers, etc. it seems to me that the market doesn't really care much about the cars, their history, or their condition anymore. The goal seems to be get a title to a 1960s car in hand and try to resell it for profit. There are not many cars for sale in any one year and as time goes on the actual condition and or original content seems to matter less each year. Genuine Cobra and 427 Cobra parts are extremely scarce. Good replacement parts have dried up as well because the major players in having new parts made have either dropped out for some reason or switched to parts for cars that look like old ones but whose parts aren't suitable for old ones. A pretty shiny car described as “restored” can be any but restored. I have seen images of cars for sale that looked clean but were also missing many thousands of dollars worth (if you could find them) original parts.

I agree with you, big price for a car needing $200,000 or more in subsequent work and parts seems nuts. Unfortunately that is what has happened. Worse than that, there are still people buying cars and discarding a car’s original parts to put on something else they like better. Imagine a car like a 427 Cobra lasting until very recently with its original engine intact and then a person that owned the car for a short time replaced the entire induction system. The original system was for practical purposes given away. The current owner might find a correct style replacement but the original to the car system is now lost. The short time owner didn’t seem to care about the car’s integrity.

Dan

[vernonestes]

I think you are exactly right and it is really kind of unfortunate.....
I was just surprised at the sale of the blue car especially as all the "stories" were appropiately listed in the auction description and it still sold for big time money.
However, right now, that car would have not gotten the money, in my opinion, that it did at that auction as the prices are adjusting and settling in the market.
Best Regards,
Vern

[rr64]

Originally Posted by vernonestes

I prices are adjusting and settling in the market.
Best Regards,
Vern

Prices do seem to be taking a small dip of both Cobras and 427 Cobras AND as they do the better cars people were thinking about offering in other than auction venues will probably go back to whatever their status quo was. Part 1: A few owners of higher grade cars that I know get itchy when they see prices soar BUT will kill the thought of selling at even a hint of falling prices. Part 2: They say, why would I sell my very original car for a price that a car with questioned history sells for? (Think like we might have in 1969. Back in 1969 a rusty, wrecked, or butchered 1966 Mustang hard top on a car lot might be $700 while a real nice one a block over might be $950. It would have been crazy to sell a great car for the same money as the junker.)

I hate that value has so much to do with Cobras and 427 Cobras. It would better in my opinion if they were "worth" no more and no less than any other 1960s car. In that scenario only those that loved the cars would bother with them and those people that would sell their family for another big score could hawk something else.

Dan

[vernonestes]

Once again, totally agree.
Dont you think also that most of the largely original cars never see the auction block or public sale in general? I would think that most of the best cars are traded in private and when they are traded privatly, how could one tell what a truly good car is worth at any given time?
Best regards,
Vern

[rr64]

Originally Posted by vernonestes

Once again, totally agree.
Dont you think also that most of the largely original cars never see the auction block or public sale in general? I would think that most of the best cars are traded in private and when they are traded privatly, how could one tell what a truly good car is worth at any given time?
Best regards,
Vern

"most of the largely original cars never see the auction block or public sale" ... absolutely.

"how could one tell what a truly good car is worth at any given time?" ... the
"market" can't.

Privately it is still whatever two parties agree to. I know of people selling cars above and below "market" in private transactions. The very best cars might change hands two or three hands before the public is aware of what is happening. These deals are real. How about the auctions? Ever notice the same car for sale and "selling" more than once in a year but never seeming to change what garage it is in?

[bitzman]

A year or so ago I asked Lynn Park, who owns ten real Cobras, how much an unrestored 289 was. He said $300,000.
I then asked well what is a restored one worth and he said $300,000
I said "You mean the guy who sinks tens of thousands into restoring it is not going to get anything for his additional investment?" and he shrugged, implying that one man's restoration is not anothers and that in all likelihood even a restored car will be brought back to bare metal and work done to bring it back to the way it was back in the Sixties. I can imagine now that "barn find" cars are being shown at Concours (just saw two shabby Ferraris at the Palm Springs Concours) what this does to restoration shops' futures--why restore it when if you find the right car you can sell it just like you found it for the same money?

[vernonestes]

Bitzman

I think the answer to your last question is simple. There really arent many unrestored cobras out there. Cobras, i believe more so than any other marque, were immediatly modified by lots of owners in the late sixties up to the late eighties. They got roll bars, side exhaust, fender flares...or mostly just full s/c or fia conversions added to factory street cars.
I still believe that a correctly restored car or a survivor would get more money than an incorrectly modified car, however, not as much more proportionally to say a modified hemi cuda vs a correct hemi cuda.

Best Regards,
Vern

[vernonestes]

Case in point.....
These two cars sold at the same russo auction....
http://www.russoandsteele.com/collec...rt__/6176.html
http://www.russoandsteele.com/collec...27__/6025.html
....the company even put the same reserve on the cars...
Best Regards,
Vern

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by vernonestes

Case in point.....
These two cars sold at the same russo auction....
http://www.russoandsteele.com/collec...rt__/6176.html
http://www.russoandsteele.com/collec...27__/6025.html
....the company even put the same reserve on the cars...
Best Regards,
Vern

Vern,
These auctions were from 2006 and list the "Final Bid". That does not mean the cars actually sold to a new owner.
The estimate may be placed by the auction company, but the reserve was determined from the seller.

[vernonestes]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Vern,
These auctions were from 2006 and list the "Final Bid". That does not mean the cars actually sold to a new owner.
The estimate may be placed by the auction company, but the reserve was determined from the seller.

I know....
However, regardless of what the reserve, the estimates, or the year were .......the high bids are still what the open market was willing to give for those cars.

Best Regards,
Vern

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by vernonestes

I know....
.......the high bids are still what the open market was willing to give for those cars.
Best Regards,
Vern

I would agree, if the high bid was real and the car was sold.

[vernonestes]

Even if the cars didnt sell, i think if the bid was real, as you said, then it is a legit representation of the market.
Best Regards,
Vern

[bitzman]

That last line has great significance. Without casting any aspersions on any particular auction companies, when I was in the side business of buying and locating exotic cars I would notice the same cast of "shady" characters at every auction. Sometimes they would enter a bid, driving the price up, and then disappear outside the tent, having accomplished their purpose of sucking a legit bidder into entering the next bid that tops theirs. One dealer in RR and Bentley from California even asked me to bid on one of his own cars , an S2 Bentley with custom coachwork, but I refused because I didn't want to be thrown out for entering a bid when I wasn't a registered bidder, plus I didn't want to be stuck with the car! So if I was going to bid on a collector car at an auction, I'd try to get someone who is an auction regular to give me advice on whether he thinks bids are coming from real bidders, with real money, or shills (schills?) there only to pump up the price another notch. Of course some bidders are gilt-edged, say like the late Otis Chandler (former publisher LA Times), when they bid you know they have the money. In fact one time I was buying a Ford at Galpin Ford and I saw Otis enter the showroom and I told my salesman "give that man whatever he wants, just hand him the key" and he didn't believe me and put poor Otis through the old "we got to check your credit" gambit.

[vernonestes]

Hey guys,

Wallace, that Otis Chandler guy had a few ok cars in his day didnt he?

But while we are on the topic of fake bids, i think one point should be brought up. When one is bidding on a car you are fully entitled to the right to "see the bidder". When bidding at any time you can ask the auctioneer to point out or name who is bidding against you. I have seen this on multiple occasions at the big auctions. When all the sudden the bid goes down substantially and the auction stops because of some "mistake" made by the auction house. There is no mistake. Just no other bidder. I heard some rumor about there being no bidder against one mr ron pratte after 1 mil when he bought the futureliner a few years ago, but that is all heresay and i dont even remember where i heard it.

It happens all the time. However, i think if one is not on top of things while bidding then it is ones own fault for getting screwed like that. Not saying that the auction houses are ok for doing such things, just saying that the bidder has to take responsibility for himself and the auctions house's main objective is to represent the seller, not the bidder....period.

Best Regards,
Vern

[bitzman]

One thing that makes the auction scene a little more fathomable for the buyer is that now you can take a wireless laptop, go to the auction the earliest day (Barrett Jackson you can even go a week early) and start researching the cars you want to bid on to see if everything is jake with them. For instance, I saw a Pantera 7X at the RM Auction at Monterey and they had no sign on it declaring it was a one off prototype, possibly the only US legal 1975 Pantera, etc. etc. but if someone wanted to research it, they could have gotten the SN, gotten onto the net, found Pantera forums, etc. etc. and realized that it was a rare prototype being sold not just a custom Pantera. I think most people who attended that auction didn't know the significance of it because there was no sign announcing it. The good thing about auctions is you never know what's going to come up and be presented, so I think it behooves you to do advance research on the cars you want so that when that special car comes up, you are ready and have files on that car. There are dozens of cars I have files on, just no money to buy them, but at least when they are unearthed, I will know what they are, say for instance the Plymouth XNR two seater prototype, last seen 30-years ago in a picture in Saudi Arabia...