Would a 427 have fit in an original daytona coupe?

[chuckbrandt]

New guy here, so I thought I'd throw out a puzzler for you, with some side questions.

I'm wondering if a 427 FE would have fit in an original Daytona Coupe, and if not why not?

I've read that CSX 2286 was intended to get a 427 at first and it got a 3" longer frame to fit it. Does anyone know where they needed the extra 3"?

Note that the flip top cobra had an FE in a leaf sprung frame. Was it also 3" longer?

Also, does the engine in a daytona coupe sit lower in the frame than a 289 roadster?

Sorry for the barage of questions, hopefully it will be something interesting to you all to discuss.

Thanks, Chuck Brandt

[289Cobra]

Alright Chuck, spill the beans. You've been posting these questions on a lot of forums. Is there a new project in store for the Brandt Garage???

Russ D.

[chuckbrandt]

hmm.... could be, but if I end up doing it, it will take a LONG time.

Russ, I need to talk to you about Greenwood also... it's hush hush though for now.

Chuck

[bitzman]

Hi Chuck:
the picture I've seen of them building the 427 Cobra Daytona in Italy
shows the extra length in the nose. There is also a bulge (blister) in the hood. But I think they stopped building it and went back to a 289 coupe when another Daytona was damaged en route to a race (tall truck, low bridge). So that proves that the 427 fit if you lengthened the chassis a bit.
I don't know if the Super Coupe has a longer chassis.

The owner of the flip top is I think Gordon Gimbel in Sacramento, maybe he can tell you if the chassis is longer. the famous shot taken in the LAX factory of the Cobra with two batteries in the back is actualy the flip top though the guy who wrote the captions thought it was a regular 427 Cobra chassis.

Has the book on the mid-engined sports racers of the Sixties been completed?
Thanks
ww

[vernonestes]

We also have to remember that csx2286 was original slated for a 427...they even lengthened the chassis by 3" before it was decided to be completed as a normal 289 car.
Best Regards,
Vern

[427SnakeSC]

Chuck, that would be an interesting project! Here is some info, specs and pics of the original 427 Coupe that I was able to put together. Hope this helps you out. http://www.csx427sc.citymax.com/page/page/5398004.htm

[bitzman]

Brock's car came later. that was bodied in England by Radford (whose name was mostly in their Bentley conversions and Mini mods). Maybe Chuck is talking about the 289 style leaf sprung Daytona coupe. There are pictures in books of the lengthed chassis one getting ready to install the big block engine. It has a hood blister to clear the carb. This car was stopped when the accident happened messing up a previously built 289 Cobra Daytona coupe. Brock's car is on a 427 coil spring chassis.
Curiously the Shelby American Collection has another 427 Cobra coupe, never finished but I have no idea who built that and why it was stopped from ever being completed. Does anyone have a picture of that they can post?

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by bitzman

Curiously the Shelby American Collection has another 427 Cobra coupe, never finished but I have no idea who built that and why it was stopped from ever being completed. Does anyone have a picture of that they can post?

Built by John Willment but never completed. Now owned by Larry Miller.

[bitzman]

Just to make sure all the bases are covered, there is another
Italian bodied 427 Cobra over in the UK
It was also owned by Willment
apparently a Comp 427 roadster chassis
I first heard that the car's original body was smashed and that
s why they put an old Fiat aluminum body on it (called Supersonic body style) but later heard it came without a body so they used the Fiat body which was lightweight and pretty race in styling (Rita Hayworth used to drive one of the Fiat Supersonics).
I have read reports of those who drove it in England. It must be quite a handful. But nobody has seen fit to rebody it as a roadster. Maybe if this car ever reaches an auction in the US it should be offered with both bodies!
The picture I found of a Supersonic on the net is small but here it is:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/searc...bc&no=28&tt=30

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by bitzman

Just to make sure all the bases are covered, there is another
Italian bodied 427 Cobra over in the UK
It was also owned by Willment
apparently a Comp 427 roadster chassis
I first heard that the car's original body was smashed and that
s why they put an old Fiat aluminum body on it (called Supersonic body style) but later heard it came without a body so they used the Fiat body which was lightweight and pretty race in styling (Rita Hayworth used to drive one of the Fiat Supersonics).
I have read reports of those who drove it in England. It must be quite a handful. But nobody has seen fit to rebody it as a roadster. Maybe if this car ever reaches an auction in the US it should be offered with both bodies!
The picture I found of a Supersonic on the net is small but here it is:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/searc...bc&no=28&tt=30

Wally,
You asked about this car in December. The answer was that it was chassis CSX3055 that was never built as a Cobra. You could save a lot of research time by buying a 1997 SAAC Registry It all in there. :

[bitzman]

Without trying to get too bogged down in the twisty historical bits I think if Shelby himself were to buy
it and have it bodied as a Cobra then you would have a lot of
argument that it is a Cobra,i.e..

1.you could document chassis built in original era by AC
2. you could document it was built with 427 engine in original era
3. you could document it has AC on the title (and may say Cobra)
4. you could document it as a CSX3000 on the serial number
5. Shelby building the body is only the original builder completing the
car;albeit after a slight interlude of time

For comparison, let's take the example of a P51 Mustang airplane built in a knock down kit for shipment during WWII (we shipped planes to many nations). If you found one of these in a box and put it together in 2008 would it not still be a WWII P51 Mustang?

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by bitzman

Without trying to get too bogged down in the twisty historical bits I think if Shelby himself were to buy
it and have it bodied as a Cobra then you would have a lot of
argument that it is a Cobra,i.e..

1.you could document chassis built in original era by AC
2. you could document it was built with 427 engine in original era
3. you could document it has AC on the title (and may say Cobra)
4. you could document it as a CSX3000 on the serial number
5. Shelby building the body is only the original builder completing the
car;albeit after a slight interlude of time

Wally,

Sometimes changing history is known as fraud. Aren't we all very happy that there has been a SAAC Registry for all these years to document and help prevent some of these things from happening.

Originally Posted by bitzman

For comparison, let's take the example of a P51 Mustang airplane built in a knock down kit for shipment during WWII (we shipped planes to many nations). If you found one of these in a box and put it together in 2008 would it not still be a WWII P51 Mustang?

This is just a plane with all its original parts since new that has not been assembled.

[bitzman]

to go back to the airplane analogy, is a plane in a box made during WWII but never assembled/flown in WWII still a WWII plane when it reaches the auction block?

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by bitzman

to go back to the airplane analogy, is a plane in a box made during WWII but never assembled/flown in WWII still a WWII plane when it reaches the auction block?

Is it a P51 Mustang? - Yes
Was it manufactured in the 1940's? -Yes
Was it a plane used during WWII? - No

Some of the P51's were not used until after WWII.
In the following case they were not used until the 1950's

"New Zealand placed an order for 320 P-51s just before the end of WWII. In 1945, 30 were delivered. These were left in their packing cases until 1950. They were assembled and assigned to the TAF (Territorial Air Force) a component of the Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF). The TAF disbanded in 1955. Shortly after, the Mustangs were sold for scrap." from http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51.shtml


As you see the P51 was used for several different tasks, not just a WWII fighter.

[bitzman]

...is still a Cobra to me if it was made on the same assembly line
as the other Cobras at the same time by the same workers
with the same parts.
There are many examples in other marques; to name two, the guy who worked at Studebaker who ordered a 300SL gullwing piece by piece and put it together; the guy who ordered all the parts for a Porsche 904 and put it together years later. Both those cars would be accepted as legitimate examples of their marque although completed later than the original chassis were laid down

PS you airplane buffs, my uncle in Switzerland told me Switzerland got P51s in boxes too, so start looking in those hidden bases hidden inside mountains...

[A-Snake]

"...is still a Cobra to me if it was made on the same assembly line
as the other Cobras at the same time by the same workers
with the same parts." ...bitzman


Wally, The chassis of CSX3055 is the only thing that went down the AC line in the '60's. Anything added today to that chassis to build a car simply creates a replica of a Cobra

[DCMGT]

Things may not be so easy to categorize and better left for readers of the registry to draw their own conclusions.

An example is CSX3005: It was parted out at Shelby American (the body is currently on CSX3102) with the main frame rail portion of the chassis with suspension and wheels/tires were sold as just that (not as a car). It is now being rebuild into a Cobra with new substructure, body and everything else and I don't think Nedsel will be calling it a replica.

There are so many variations and scenarios of what has happened to these cars. The registry is primarily intended to document what has happened to each chassis number, not categorize and/or assign names....that is unless a car has no valid traceability to the remains or paperwork of the car, in which case it is simply not an original.