Leave the old and embrace modern Muscle?

[GrabberOrange69]

Well folks here's the debate:

Is this new and modern muscle car age one for the record books, and if so, should we abandon the old cars to put as many new ones in the driveway as possible (I'm not a millionaire and can't do it all - working on a USAF Major's salary!)? Will the current fuel pricing eventually lead to this being the high water mark in automotive history, with the Z-06 Vette, Ford GT and, 07 Shelby GT500?

I'm a GenXer who was born in 65 and didn't have a chance to live through the first age of the Muscle Car, but owns a 63 Falcon Sprint 4sp, 65 Mustang, a 69 GT 350 4sp, and a 2002 Mustang GT 5sp 'vert.

The running debate that follows is between me and a longtime friend named Eric (who owns the first 68 428 CJ coupe built, a 67 red/red GT 'vert, and a blown 93 LX 5.0). Eric is a freelance writer for Mustang and Fords, Mustang monthly, and MM&Fast Fords.

My e-mail to Eric:

Well - I hear you when you said "I'm sick of my old cars". Here's a great vote for the new. Check out, this guy who owns a red 06 Mustang and also owns a 67 GT 500 drag car. Notice he put a blower on the new car and it's faster than the old one plus gets 20 mpg and can be driven anywhere.

Should we abandon our old cars and embrace the second coming of the Muscle Car? I.e., We didn't live in the 60s so we missed that era of cars, but are we missing a worthy era right under our noses? Should we be dumping our old cars (like dudes dropped their 32 Ford 3 windows in the 60s for "modern" muscle cars) and forge headlong into the second musclecar era? Will we regret not titleing one of these in our name 20 years from now? Think of all the discussions we had about 'why didn't guys back then all buy Hemi 4sp cars", chastising the likes of my dad for not upgrading his 67 to a GT 390? While we sit here on the sidelines as the New Mustang, Challenger, and Camaro hit the streets, not to mention the Z-06 Vette or Ford GT.

What would life be like if we dumped all the old iron and put even just an 07 GT500 in the driveway? Much less a Ford GT!

I could go down to a 3 car family; 2004 PT Cruiser (turboed 'natch), 2006 3/4 ton Chevy, and a Ford GT or 07 Shelby! Total insurance tag would be less. I have 5 batteries, 5 sets of wipers, 5 tanks of gas, and 5 coats of paint to take care of. Am I crazy?!

Bryan


Here's Eric's response:

Bryan,

Oh boy, you've nailed it all! I'm torn around 50/50. Nothing like the old cars for pure beautiful design - that was the heyday for sure, unencumbered by government regulations, safety concerns, and the "soft" mentality (gotta have my A/C, etc.) of today's car buyer. The new cars look way better than anything in the last 30 years, but not quite like the old, which are true works of art.

I hear you on the high cost (mental if not financial) of maintaining a bunch of cars. though I don't think I want to pare down below two toys - unless for a Ford GT. Think of it, we could each afford a new Shelby and a new Challenger for what we could get for our vintage iron. Not that you'd want to, but pretty cool. I wonder if one new and one old might not be the best, unfortunately that doesn't leave any option for the Fox era, and I'm tired of driving one everyday - gas, 13 years old, etc.

Eric


So, what do you think? Weigh in now!

Bryan

[67GT500#2100]

Originally Posted by GrabberOrange69

Well folks here's the debate:
Well - I hear you when you said "I'm sick of my old cars". Here's a great vote for the new. Check out, this guy who owns a red 06 Mustang and also owns a 67 GT 500 drag car. Notice he put a blower on the new car and it's faster than the old one plus gets 20 mpg and can be driven anywhere.
Bryan

Is this me? Did he pull this from another forum. My avatar shows my 67 in the 80's as a drag car and I have a red 06 Mustang with a blower that is faster than the Shelby. It is my wife's daily driver and according to the cars computer still gets 20.3 mpg with 4.10's and a five speed. I use the same avatar on every forum I post though my screen name may change emphasize the car which relates to that forum. My daily driver is a 87 LX 5.0 with many mods and I love it. I also could not bring myself to sell my old cars. I have had most of them for a long time and I don't know which I would sell if I had to, but unless we are going to be homeless the Shelby stays for sure.

To your topic I guess if you have lost you passion for old cars you should sell them while they are still hot and get those new toys. I love wrenching on my old cars and hate wrenching on the new ones. Why? I guess it is because daily drivers have to be fixed right away while the old ones can wait til you have time and can enjoy it. As far as wanting to be the original owner of an 07 Shelby 20 years from now, this is the only time you will be able to pull that off so go for it if that is your goal.

[GrabberOrange69]

67GT500#2100,

I still have the passion for the old cars - I hear you about working on them vs working on new ones. Old cars being much easier to fix if broke, but break more often. They are beatiful works of automotive art. I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind if this second Muscle car era will be the high water mark, and I'd like to be part of it. I'm sure that few would have predicted the emaciated look of the 1974 model year in 1970. In my financial circumstances, I can't have it all, but I still think that maybe we haven't seen the best yet. Who knows.

You were the subject of my e-mail to my buddy Eric, because you've got the best of both worlds. We've been turning wrenches together on various projects since 1981, and the debate has gone round and round recently on the subject of this posting. Over the years we've owned lots of Muscle Cars, as most guys in the hobby do. We're both too young to have bought in to the original wave of Muscle cars. So we wonder if this might be a good place to pare down to one classic and jump into the top of the new car playing field? And that is the debate!

Bryan

[daltondavid]

the lure of new Muscle is certainly appealing. and I have a nice 3 piece collection that many would love to own any one of. the thought of selling one of them to pay for one of the new is not appealing to me. but if the bug bites hard for a new one, there is always FORD MOTOR CREDIT!!

[roddster]

I can't tell you. But, I got my licence back in 1968 - any grocery store stockboy could earn enough weekly to just go down and made the 36 payments on most any new muscle cars. Why didn't those way-special models like the Shelby, hemi-anything Mopar, of the ZL engined Chevys get ordered more? Because a $400 to $800 engine option back then was serious money.
And, another view point, would be to just buy somebody elses 55' to 57' Chevy and build it up the way you wanted. Even then, it was about the same price to go down to the dealer buy a way powerful car that was brand new.
I like the old muscle because I like the way the old muscle cars look. I especially liked the way the 67 Shelby looked. So, right after I graduated high school, I bought a used 67 GT 350. Still own it today.

[GrabberOrange69]

Originally Posted by roddster

...I got my licence back in 1968 - any grocery store stockboy could earn enough weekly to just go down and made the 36 payments on most any new muscle cars...

That's part of the problem these days - I don't think working at walmart will put one in the driveway, and I'm talking a GT, not a Shelby. When my dad bought his garden variety '67 coupe he was making like 2.15/hour and buying a $2400 car (traded in his 63 Corvair Spyder 4sp Turbo car!), he'd have to work 930 hours to pay it off. Being generous, lets say walmart pays you $9/hour - you'd need to work 2777 hours to pay a 25,000 Mustang GT off. Put another way, you need to make 26.88/hour to pay it off in 930 work hours. The 60s really were the "classic" age of the automobile.

Maybe this is why Hondas are so popular with the younger set?

Bryan

[67GT500#2100]

Originally Posted by GrabberOrange69

That's part of the problem these days - I don't think working at walmart will put one in the driveway, and I'm talking a GT, not a Shelby. When my dad bought his garden variety '67 coupe he was making like 2.15/hour and buying a $2400 car (traded in his 63 Corvair Spyder 4sp Turbo car!), he'd have to work 930 hours to pay it off. Being generous, lets say walmart pays you $9/hour - you'd need to work 2777 hours to pay a 25,000 Mustang GT off. Put another way, you need to make 26.88/hour to pay it off in 930 work hours. The 60s really were the "classic" age of the automobile.

Maybe this is why Hondas are so popular with the younger set?

Bryan

I employ a bunch of 18-25 year olds and I think the problem is perception. The perception that Mustangs are more expensive than they can afford. These kids never go look at new Mustangs because they think they are out of reach. Yet they show up with a $30,000 plus RX7's or Lancer Evo's and think they got a great deal. When I told them my 06 Mustang had every available option except auto trans and A plan was $27,000 they can't believe it. I don't know what could be done but I know that 20 years ago when I was drag racing at Ford events there were lots of kids like me just out of high school with 5.0 Mustangs and classic Fords. When I went to Fun Ford weekend this year there were very few people under the age of 35.

[mrdoc442]

Originally Posted by GrabberOrange69

67GT500#2100,

I still have the passion for the old cars - I hear you about working on them vs working on new ones. Old cars being much easier to fix if broke, but break more often. They are beatiful works of automotive art. I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind if this second Muscle car era will be the high water mark, and I'd like to be part of it. I'm sure that few would have predicted the emaciated look of the 1974 model year in 1970. In my financial circumstances, I can't have it all, but I still think that maybe we haven't seen the best yet. Who knows.

You were the subject of my e-mail to my buddy Eric, because you've got the best of both worlds. We've been turning wrenches together on various projects since 1981, and the debate has gone round and round recently on the subject of this posting. Over the years we've owned lots of Muscle Cars,
as most guys in the hobby do. We're both too young to have bought in to the original wave of Muscle cars. So we wonder if this might be a good place to pare down to one classic and jump into the top of the new car playing field? And that is the debate!

Bryan

middle ground is the answer.

How 'bout" some of each.

Something old school to twist the wrenches on when boredom or the urge hits you, and something new to play with/work on, or not depending upon any mods desired etc.

I know as I get older I enjoy crawling under dirty cars, getting greasy up to the elbows, dirt/grease/rocks in my eyes, busted knuckles, garage mess to clean up, having to dredge up any required parts necessary to fix/repair the car (many times at exorbitant prices), appeals to me a little less every year. Unless you are working on a proven classic, when you eventually attempt to sell the old school ride that you have sunk thousands of $$$$$$ in, only to find out that you most likely will take a beating, getting maybe $.30 on the dollar, not counting the countless hours of time you donate to the project, can be very disheartening.

I guess the moral of this narrative is to be careful what you choose to sink a ton of money and time in, if you have any hopes of recovering any significant amount of your investment. If any or all of the above is your passion, then just go for it.

Doc

[shlby66]

Why not enjoy Both? Have the vintage ride in the garage for those special outings and fun times to enjoy. Have a modern one for the daily driver convenience factor and enjoyment. Go for the gusto!
shlby66

[mherman2]

I can relate to this a bit. The think the main difference is that from a collectibility standpoint is that they aren't making any more 1965-1970 Shelbys. What's out there is what's out there. Kind of like a Mickey Mantle rookie card, only so many exist and very few in great condition. However, you can find about 5 million Derek Jeter rookie cards all in mint condition. People bought original Shelby's and drove them, abused them, used them like they were suppose to. Some people are buying the new muscle cars purely for an investment, wiping them 5x a day with a cloth, covering them etc... So in 40 years there will be no distinction between the condition of a "Concours" 2007 Shelby other than miles.

I bought my 1st Shelby about a year ago. I bought a Unique Performance Super Snake convertible. Through some good fortune I ran into some money and then bought a 67 GT500 and a 68 KR Convertible. I am restoring both to original specs with the help of some great resources. I will enjoy all 3 cars but at some point I will sell 2 of them and keep 1. At least that's what I tell myself!!!

I like many of us am some what new to the sport/hobby. I have read more online and in books about Shelby's over the last year than I ever read for college. Just one awesome piece of American Automotive history.

The new muscle cars are only going to drive the demand for the originals up and up. People are going to buy a new one, go to a show and see and original and say "Must have, must have, must have". I also bet it will work the opposite way.

I just got off the phone with a local Ford Dealer and he said he will sell me his one allocated GT500 for $75k. Given the price of the Hertz car on Ebay, I am considering it.

Would you guys pay $75k for a new one custom ordered?

[GrabberOrange69]

Originally Posted by mrdoc442

middle ground is the answer.

I know as I get older I enjoy crawling under dirty cars, getting greasy up to the elbows, dirt/grease/rocks in my eyes, busted knuckles, garage mess to clean up, having to dredge up any required parts necessary to fix/repair the car (many times at exorbitant prices), appeals to me a little less every year.

Doc

Doc - ain't that the truth. I know I'm still relatively young at 41, but I used to just eat up the opportunity to get dirty on some hunk of rusted steel. Not anymore.

My life is about ready to take a turn and I think this has some impact on the cars as well. I couldn't help but notice your profile - that you work with veterans. I've got 18 years in the Air Force and I'm making what I believe to be my last move - PCSing to Nellis AB, NV in January where I hope to finish up and retire. I'll take my last flight in the F-16 on the 20th of December here in Utah, then walk away from it and move to a desk job. I'm ready to move on - it's a young, young man's game and old age and treachery are starting to not be enough to overcome youth and inexperience!

Originally Posted by mherman2

I just got off the phone with a local Ford Dealer and he said he will sell me his one allocated GT500 for $75k. Given the price of the Hertz car on Ebay, I am considering it.

Would you guys pay $75k for a new one custom ordered?

mherman2 I need your job - If you could swing it, yes, I'd get an 07 Shelby!



Bryan

[mrdoc442]

Originally Posted by mherman2

I can relate to this a bit. The think the main difference is that from a collectibility standpoint is that they aren't making any more 1965-1970 Shelbys. What's out there is what's out there. Kind of like a Mickey Mantle rookie card, only so many exist and very few in great condition. However, you can find about 5 million Derek Jeter rookie cards all in mint condition. People bought original Shelby's and drove them, abused them, used them like they were suppose to. Some people are buying the new muscle cars purely for an investment, wiping them 5x a day with a cloth, covering them etc... So in 40 years there will be no distinction between the condition of a "Concours" 2007 Shelby other than miles.

I bought my 1st Shelby about a year ago. I bought a Unique Performance Super Snake convertible. Through some good fortune I ran into some money and then bought a 67 GT500 and a 68 KR Convertible. I am restoring both to original specs with the help of some great resources. I will enjoy all 3 cars but at some point I will sell 2 of them and keep 1. At least that's what I tell myself!!!

I like many of us am some what new to the sport/hobby. I have read more online and in books about Shelby's over the last year than I ever read for college. Just one awesome piece of American Automotive history.

The new muscle cars are only going to drive the demand for the originals up and up. People are going to buy a new one, go to a show and see and original and say "Must have, must have, must have". I also bet it will work the opposite way.

I just got off the phone with a local Ford Dealer and he said he will sell me his one allocated GT500 for $75k. Given the price of the Hertz car on Ebay, I am considering it.

Would you guys pay $75k for a new one custom ordered?

Good sized chunk of $$$ you ran into. Please feel welcome to share any financial betterment suggestions (or the secrets of your success) with the rest of us. (+:

If you monitor E-Bay the 2007 Shelby GT500's astronomical price increases seem to have stabilized somewhat. I think $15K over MSRP or less, would be a pretty good target to shoot for. At $75K that is $25K to $30K over MSRP depending upon if a coupe or convertible. That is a little steep by my way of thinking. I think the mad rush is somewhat diminished, and many potential buyers are waiting to find them at a better price used, are hoping to find one stranded in some dealers showroom - thus offered at a diminished mark-up, (remember what happened in 1969), or are willing to wait it out for the 2008. Maybe it is my imagination, but it just feels to me like the initial feeding frenzy is cooling off somewhat, for whatever reasons. I still maintain the real sleepers, with potential value down the road will be the Hertz rent-a-cars, which, although less powerful than the GT 500, were actually modified by Shelby. The jury is out on the Mustang white with gray stripe GT's, that are slated to be built by Shelby as well, and available with 5 spds., I believe.

I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you that you will absolutely love the new GT 500. After you drive the 2007 GT500, the next time you get behind the wheel of the old school stuff it will feel like comparing the Starship Enterprise with a Stagecoach. No comparison. Of course it is only fair to recognize that it is essentially comparing 1960/1970 technology with 2007 technology, which is a little unfair.

I grew up with the Old School muscle cars, and still have two of them, though one is a dedicated Super Gas drag car. They have fairly decent straight line acceleration, but their big wide tires tend to grab every rut and bump in the road, they have inadequate brakes, which tend to overheat as does their engine, they really don't handle all that well, and they have lots of cabin noise, and on and on. The new Shelby GT 500 is pretty much outstanding in all the ways that the 0ld School muscle cars aren't.

Originally Posted by GrabberOrange69

Doc - ain't that the truth. I know I'm still relatively young at 41, but I used to just eat up the opportunity to get dirty on some hunk of rusted steel. Not anymore.

My life is about ready to take a turn and I think this has some impact on the cars as well. I couldn't help but notice your profile - that you work with veterans. I've got 18 years in the Air Force and I'm making what I believe to be my last move - PCSing to Nellis AB, NV in January where I hope to finish up and retire. I'll take my last flight in the F-16 on the 20th of December here in Utah, then walk away from it and move to a desk job. I'm ready to move on - it's a young, young man's game and old age and treachery are starting to not be enough to overcome youth and inexperience!

Bryan

Bryan.

So you are trading in the bright blue skies for some black-top?

Sounds like you are ready for the change.

Good luck in your new endeavors.

Doc

[mherman2]

Yeah, i was looking under SHelby only and not Ford Mustang. When I went there on EBAY it is pretty easy to see $75k is a little steep. So I will just hang out and see what happens and maybe pick one up in the spring.

Little luck with a small company that got big that afforded me the opportunity to go buy a few of these babies.

Mike

[mrdoc442]

Originally Posted by mherman2

Yeah, i was looking under SHelby only and not Ford Mustang. When I went there on EBAY it is pretty easy to see $75k is a little steep. So I will just hang out and see what happens and maybe pick one up in the spring.

Little luck with a small company that got big that afforded me the opportunity to go buy a few of these babies.

Mike

Congrats on your company's success.

If you get a chance you might want to review my post as I edited it somewhat, was unable to add the below update, so it may be a little repetitious....

In reference to the feeding frenzy having subsided somewhat, could be those who had to have a 2007 Shelby GT 500 at any cost have theirs, and the next wave of potential 2007 Shelby GT 500 owners are willing to wait for theirs. I still maintain the real sleepers, with potential value down the road will be the Shelby GT Black/Gold stripe Hertz rent-a-cars, which, although less powerful than the GT 500, were actually modified by Shelby. The jury is out on the Mustang GT White/Gray stripe cars, that are slated to be built by Shelby as well, and available with 5 spds., for sale to the general public. These GT's may be made in greater numbers than the Hertz cars, however, so that could have an effect upon their future value. Short term already, from what was posted on this board about the first Hertz's being sold, and the prices brought, seems to favor what I mentioned above with regard to the Hertz GT's.

Doc

[cobra427]

Bryan:

I am a retried E-7 so I know what you talking about, but I have been collecting Ford High perforamce car for awhile, and they were cheaped then. I bought my first Shelby, a 69 GT350 IN 79 when I was a AIC and stationed at Worthsmith AFB Mi. Yes I was driving a 69 Shelby as a AIC, but moving around as I had to I was not able to buy what I wanted, but I did manage to pick up another 68 Shelby GT500 and build a Cobra kit before I retired in 98. What I would do is wait until the price of the new Shelby come down to a reasonal level, and then buy, buy to keep. I have only bought 1 new car in my life and that was a 84 GT350 anniversory mustang, and it is still in my garage with 12,000 miles on it. Why do you think you have to sell your 69 Shelby that is going up in value to buy a car that will go down in value? You can have your cake and eat it too. I am looking at the new Ford GT, and I could sell my Shelbys to get one but I am waiting to see what the price will do in a few years. Remenber if you buy the right car at the right time, you can't go wrong.